I’m noticing it’s starting to become a pattern where I’m like, oh, are they missing something from a previous unit or lesson that might be now rearing its head?
~ Kindergarten Teacher from Ep. 68 of The Kindergarten Cafe Podcast
Episode Summary
Finding support in Kindergarten is always a necessity. In this episode, I speak with a fellow kindergarten teacher about implementing a scripted math curriculum while addressing students’ essential skill gaps. We discuss structuring classroom routines with engaging warm-ups and effective partner work, as well as the challenges of managing small groups in a fast-paced setting. Ultimately, we reinforce that teaching is an evolving practice, offering insights and encouragement for those facing math instruction challenges in early education.
In this episode, I share:
- Seeking Help for Small Group Strategies
- Identifying Foundational Skills
- Targeted Support Strategies
- Importance of Center Time
- Addressing Missing Skills
- Navigating Curriculum Challenges
- Collaborating with Other Classes
- Daily Touchpoints for Struggling Students
Previous Episodes:
- Exploring Counting Math Centers in Kindergarten Classrooms – Ep. 8
- Exploring Number Relationships: Creative Activities for Kindergarten Math – Ep. 13
- Working Smarter, Not Harder in Kindergarten: A Conversation with a First-Year Teacher – Ep. 15
- How to Best Manage Centers as a Classroom Teacher: Part 2 of a Conversation with a First-Year Teacher – Ep. 16
- Math Intervention for Kindergarten – Ep. 18
- Loving Teaching While Using New Curriculum ~ Ep. 29
- Using Seesaw for Improving Family Communication ~ Ep. 39
- Essential Math Skills Every Kindergartener Needs ~ Ep. 66
- Engaging Families in Supporting Struggling Learners ~ Ep. 67
Learn More With a Free Math Workshop
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In this workshop, you’ll get answers to questions like:
- When should I pull small groups?
- How do I support them effectively?
- Who should I meet with, and how do I prioritize?
- What activities should I do to make sure my students stay engaged?
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Connect with Zeba:
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- Website – www.kindergartencafe.org
- Tik Tok – @kindergartencafe
Read the Transcript
Zeba McGibbon [00:00:00]:
Hey teacher friends, it’s Zeba. I’m so excited you’re here today. I am going to be talking to another kindergarten teacher who wants to talk through some problems that they’re having in math. I did a similar episode with literacy and so if you want to hear about that episode, you can check the show notes. I’ll have the episode for you linked there. But in this episode we are talking about math and managing scripted curriculums that we don’t really have as much control over the routine. How do we really help those kids who are missing some skills that the curriculum just isn’t helping them with? And so I loved talking through this with this kindergarten teacher because it’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about myself in my practice. And if you are someone who is struggling with small groups, struggling with intervention and how to meet those skills that the kids need, I have a whole free training coming up on February 6th, Thursday at 8:00pm Eastern Standard Time.
Zeba McGibbon [00:00:58]:
I’m going to be leading a free workshop called From Planning to Progress Supporting Math intervention in your classroom. We’re going to talk about how to plan, who to pick for your group, when to meet with the group, what to do, how to do it, all the things. So after listening to this episode, if you still want more help with planning your small groups, definitely check out this workshop and I can’t wait to see you there. If you can’t come live, there will be a recording, but if you can come live, there’s some bonuses. So let’s jump into the episode where I’m talking with the kindergarten teacher about the math structure in his classroom and how to best support those kids that need some help with missing skills. You’re listening to the Kindergarten Cafe podcast where kindergarten teachers come to learn classroom tested tips and tricks and teaching ideas they can use in their classroom right away. I’m Zeba, creator and founder of Kindergarten Cafe and I help kindergarten teachers with everything they need from arrival to dismissal in order to save time, work smarter, not harder, and support students with engaging and purposeful lessons. I’m here to cheer you on through your successes and breakthroughs and offer support and resources so you never have to feel stuck or alone, ready to start saving time and reducing your stress, all while using effective and purposeful lessons that students love.
Zeba McGibbon [00:02:25]:
Let’s get started. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast so we could chat about math and how I can help you with math in your classroom because I know the questions you have. So many new and veteran teachers, myself included, have wondered These same questions. So tell me a little bit about what math is like in your classroom, what’s going well, and how I can help.
Tyler [00:02:54]:
Sure, Yeah. I think we adopted a new curriculum last year called Illustrative Math. Previously we had used math expressions to help guide our course of our year. So last year was a little bit of a learn as we go period for us. Just tackling everything that came with this new curriculum and understanding what worked and what didn’t and how we can make it work the best for the kids. So a day in the life of my kindergarten class, we start off with a warmup. It’s usually like a notice and a wonder, kind of a sequence, trying to get the kids kind of firing on all cylinders after lunch recess. We actually typically do a little like mindful kids card or a yoga card before we start math just to kind of recalibrate and settle into math mindset.
Tyler [00:03:49]:
And it takes a while in the beginning of the year for the kids to understand that not everybody’s going to be able to share during the warmup and the notice and wonder part. So we try to keep it short. That was something that we learned along the way that doesn’t need to drag on. It’s kind of just intended to be that quick touch point and to get the kids rolling. And from there we kind of roll into a whole group. They’re sitting and getting for just a little bit where I’m kind of trying to go through the lesson and make sure I touch on all the key points. And being kindergarteners, 4, 5 and 6 year olds, I think what we learned from the first year is that the lessons were intended to be longer than what was age appropriate for these kiddos. And we struggled with, okay, well, when do we release them to do their work? When do we get into partner work? How do we bounce back and forth to make it so that it flows well and so that they have enough time to.
Tyler [00:04:45]:
To get up and move or to. To have a break. And so I’m probably giving a whole group lesson for anywhere around 10, 15 max minutes before I’m releasing them to do some kind of partner work typically. So I have also found that when they’re doing partner work, that can be hard to try to navigate. Do I pair a kid that’s higher with a kid that’s struggling? How do I keep the kids that can’t be together apart? They always seem to find each other in small groups and partner work. So I printed off these fun little cards where they have to find their partner and they have to pair up whether it’s peanut butter with jelly or macaroni and cheese. So that kind of makes it fun for them too, just to find a different partner and a different way for me to get kids in different groups. So I’d like to try to.
Tyler [00:05:36]:
There’s sometimes we’re doing work from their workbook during that time. Sometimes we’re doing like a mini center where it might be introducing a center that they can do during like a free choice time at the end of the math block. Or it’s something that might be. We might do it for a little bit and then it might go away. So we’re kind of teasing that out and using that time to practice something typically new. Sometimes it’s a review, so that probably goes on for another 10 or so minutes. I don’t like to let that linger on too long just because they can get a little squirrely in that setting. So then I usually bring them back for whether there’s a little bit more in the whole group lesson, whether they’re.
Tyler [00:06:17]:
I might release them to do some independent work in the workbook that we would do together, where I have it up on the board and they’re kind of working on it together and then finish up with some kind of closure. Usually it’s like a cool down question that wraps everything together. And then to release them to do their final kind of like their exit ticket. Their evidence that I’m going to take for that day is we try to mix it up. Whether it’s like a little one pager worksheet that is tailored to that lesson specifically. We might rip out a page in the workbook if that makes more sense. We might have something that gets embedded into Seesaw and they can kind of record their voice. And they love to do that.
Tyler [00:07:00]:
They love to tell their parents what they’re working on and can go on for a while.
Zeba McGibbon [00:07:04]:
I love Seesaw. And if anyone’s listening, I have a podcast that explains, like how to use it. So I can put that in the show notes. But yeah, Seesaw is great. The parents love the peak in the classroom.
Tyler [00:07:15]:
Yeah. And they can get comments and yeah, it’s super cute.
Zeba McGibbon [00:07:18]:
So that’s kind of the structure of your math block.
Tyler [00:07:21]:
Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:07:22]:
And so what area are you looking for a little help with?
Tyler [00:07:26]:
Yeah. So I think once that’s all said and done, I typically have anywhere from if it’s a shorter lesson, maybe I have 20 minutes left at the end of math. Sometimes I have 15, 10. So I think that’s that time where I would love to just kind of brainstorm and bounce some ideas off of you in terms of how I can do a little bit more intentional small grouping, because it’s great with how our school and our district does reading and literacy block, where we definitely get to see small groups each day. And that makes such a big difference because you can really tap into what each kiddo needs. And I feel like just with the restraints of what we’re working with, there’s just not a ton of time to be able to do four or five groups and see everybody each day in math. And whether it’s some kind of rotating schedule, right now we do a lot of math choice centers, so they get to pick from different blocks or pattern shapes, shake and spill type games. A lot of those are digital apps as well.
Zeba McGibbon [00:08:26]:
So you have time for centers, math centers, and that’s like 15, 20 minutes generally. Yeah, yeah. So for everyone who’s listening, I have the same curriculum. I am also in year two, and let me say year two is so much better than year one.
Tyler [00:08:41]:
Yes, yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:08:42]:
So what I’m going to tell you what my thoughts are are not fully like, they’re what I’m going through and thinking as well. First of all, I totally agree with you on keeping things short. Because what I learned the hard way is if you’re waiting for all the kids to get it, you’re going to be there forever. And waiting for all the kids to finish the activity, you’re going to be there forever. And then you have half the class bouncing off the walls bothering each other.
Tyler [00:09:11]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:09:12]:
Because if they’re not engaged, they’re misbehaving pretty much like that leads to misbehaviors. And having seen the whole curriculum a year from start to finish, I get that you come back to this skill and you build on it inch by inch by inch by inch every day. And so if they’re not fully there yet that day, you’re going to do it again the next day, and you’re going to do it again the next day. So I think keeping it short and sweet is definitely key. And for me, I’m aim to prioritize centers now. I don’t think the curriculum at all prioritizes centers. I think they throw it in there as like, okay, we’re going to appease you early childhood people that think they should be doing it this way, and they don’t have a system or they don’t care about how they do them, if they do them correctly, if they do them all, or if they don’t do them at all. It doesn’t matter.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:05]:
So some of the things we’ve done, first of all is changing up the centers to be. Some of the centers we used to do that are the same learning target. As long as they’re meeting the goal. The curriculum clearly doesn’t care if we’re doing centers or not. And the other thing that I’ve started doing is if I can, if the learning target in activity one is like the same as activity two, which tends.
Tyler [00:10:29]:
To be the case for a couple days in a row.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:30]:
Sometimes it does. Yeah. And so then I just like don’t do activity two or I’ll do it whole class instead. And I’ll make it much shorter to prioritize that. Center time.
Tyler [00:10:40]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:41]:
And the center time, you know, talking about doing small groups with math. And I agree that it makes a lot of sense in literacy. And I used to do it in math where you had rotating small groups. You had on a schedule.
Tyler [00:10:54]:
Same. Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:55]:
And I feel like we have to let that go.
Tyler [00:10:58]:
Cause this curriculum, it was hard.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:59]:
This curriculum does not. The routine is not there.
Tyler [00:11:03]:
That structure. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:11:04]:
Yeah. But that doesn’t mean we can’t help our students meeting skills that they haven’t learned. So some of the things that I’m thinking of are having targeted skill based groups that meet for five to 10 minutes on one very simple foundational math skill that they don’t have yet. So targeted. Like you’re not trying to do all the things, trying to do one thing. And it’s a group that only needs that one skill versus like this is the red group that’s always going to meet with me every day because they’re the quote unquote low kids.
Tyler [00:11:35]:
Sure.
Zeba McGibbon [00:11:35]:
It’s more like I’m going to pull the kids that don’t know their numbers, 1 to 10.
Tyler [00:11:39]:
Yeah, you’re trying to really establish and make sure they’re getting stuff that we’ve already covered and that we’ve maybe gone way past and they need to either catch up or really make sure they need to know this before we do.
Zeba McGibbon [00:11:52]:
The next thing or that the curriculum never taught them in the first place.
Tyler [00:11:55]:
That’s another thing. There’s a lot of supplementals.
Zeba McGibbon [00:11:57]:
There’s some gaps.
Tyler [00:11:58]:
Yes, there very much is.
Zeba McGibbon [00:12:00]:
And there’s foundational skills that kids need. And this is coming out a couple of weeks after an episode that I’m releasing on what are the foundational skills? What are the key skills kids need to learn in math? So if you haven’t listened to that already, Go back because that will explain like the key skills that kids need to learn. And that’s what we’re talking about here of like, if they don’t have that, these are the kids you want to pull for your small group.
Tyler [00:12:23]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:12:23]:
And so to me, that means I’m not really meeting with kids that are in the middle or the kids that are above because I don’t have time. And those kids are getting what they need in centers. Now, some of my kids that are looking for more of a challenge, I can differentiate in the station or I can give them other opportunities throughout the day. Like we have like a math puzzle journal and a challenge journal. Like I can give them journal.
Tyler [00:12:49]:
Yeah. Just other chances to extend if they’re done early or.
Zeba McGibbon [00:12:52]:
Yeah, yeah. Like a. Like a puzzle page. Like a word problem.
Tyler [00:12:57]:
Sure. Something that kind of meets or extends where they’re at that you can’t always do. Whole group. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:03]:
So there’s Kakuma and there’s Kenkens.
Tyler [00:13:07]:
Okay.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:07]:
And they’re kind of like step ups from like sudoku with adds in some addition and subtraction.
Tyler [00:13:13]:
Oh, neat. Okay.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:14]:
And you can get them a lot free and you can print them out. But I give those to some of the kids as like if they’re done early, they can go get their math puzzle journal. And that’s like what’s inside of is a lot of those kinds of things. Or like patterns. Finding the patterns and continuing the patterns. Make your own patterns, that kind of stuff.
Tyler [00:13:30]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:30]:
But so then the middle kids are like where they should be with the centers. It’s free flowing. They can change when they want to change the center. And then you have the kids that are missing key skills. So those kids. I have rest time in my schedule. That’s when we can do like intervention for our school for kindergarten. So I’ll pull them for like 10 minutes or my assistant will pull them for 10 minutes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:51]:
And just like we worked on number ID 1 to 10, now we’re moving on 10 to 20. Or we work on like subitizing and like just working to seeing groups of numbers. Like the. Showing the numbers on the hands.
Tyler [00:14:03]:
Yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:03]:
Like the curriculum did that for like a week. And there’s some kids that still aren’t.
Tyler [00:14:06]:
There and then it’s gone. Yeah, the hand cards.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:09]:
Yeah, yeah. So combining that for those kids that really need it, like if they’re working on number id, have them also show you on their hands or like.
Tyler [00:14:16]:
Sure.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:17]:
If they’re working on subitizing, add in the number cards that they can make the connection to get those wires crossing. Yeah, yeah. So if you have time in your day or those five, 10 minutes, like, targeted, that’s when I would do that. Of like, they really missing this skill. They need this. Not everyone has that time in their day. So what I would say is, if I didn’t have that time in the day or if I knew I had another group that really needed something, I could say, you guys are going to go do centers, and these three kids stay on the rug with me, and I’d have what I need in the rug so they don’t have to transition.
Tyler [00:14:49]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:49]:
Time is short.
Tyler [00:14:50]:
Other thing. Yep. If you don’t have it ready, then they’re idling, and then you lose them.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:54]:
Yeah, yeah. So just have, like, a basket of, like, tools that they’re ready of, like cubes, number cards. And then you can pretty much do anything with those tools, right?
Tyler [00:15:04]:
Absolutely.
Zeba McGibbon [00:15:05]:
And so do it again, like, just five, 10 minutes, and then send them off to centers. Right. And if they do it every day with you for like, a couple of weeks of. Let’s say the skill is recognizing numbers to 10. Maybe it’s number order one to 10. Maybe it’s counting. If they do one round of counting with you right there, and then you send them off to centers, that’s really great. It’s not as good as that small group time, but it’s.
Tyler [00:15:30]:
It’s utilizing what’s there.
Zeba McGibbon [00:15:32]:
Yeah, exactly. When we would do those small groups, sometimes we just try to throw everything in and fill the time. And this is, like, very targeted of like, we’ll just do this one thing. The other thing I was thinking, too, is, for me, I insert myself into the centers with the kids. So if I know this kid is working on counting and the other kids all get counting, like, I’m going to sit with this kid and let’s say the centers demonstrate it. Yeah, Right. Well, sometimes the centers aren’t even about counting. Maybe now we’re moving on to addition.
Zeba McGibbon [00:16:02]:
So now they’re, like, counting all and they’re adding together. I just want to make sure this kid can count first. So I’m going to insert myself and really make sure he’s counting out loud to me, like, a bunch of times.
Tyler [00:16:15]:
One to one. Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:16:17]:
So that’s a good time to work with kids. And you can also purposely pull, like, partnerships that way, too, of, like, I know these two kids need to do it. Or like, I want these three to start at the center, and then you guys can make your own choice. And the Other thing I was thinking too is like giving them supports when they’re at the centers is another way to support them and help them learn those skills, giving them tools that they need. So if it’s accounting center or even a sender that utilizes counting, can you give them a counting mat or a number line or you know, a mat that has the numbers with the 10 frames so they, if they can’t identify the numbers yet, they can find the number, count out the dots, like find the one that matches.
Tyler [00:16:59]:
A way that works for them.
Zeba McGibbon [00:17:00]:
Yeah. And that’s practice over. Like if they’re at a center where they are rolling the dice and they’re writing the number and they don’t know which number is seven, but they rolled a seven on the dice, having that mat out where they’re counting the dots each time to find 7 is good counting practice, good subitizing practice. And then they’re working on the number ID because they’re matching the number to the concept and then they’re practicing writing it.
Tyler [00:17:26]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:17:27]:
So it’s targeting those skills. So that’s why I put so much value into center time, because you can be flexible. Meet kids where they are and it’s that hands on, repetitive practice that they need.
Tyler [00:17:39]:
Absolutely. With those small groups, would you say don’t go over four or five that you’re pulling at once. Are you really trying to do two or three? Have you found a magic number for that time?
Zeba McGibbon [00:17:53]:
Yeah, I wouldn’t do more than five for sure. But I think when we were thinking about small groups of I need everyone to be in a rotation, you needed to fill the group with a certain number.
Tyler [00:18:05]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:18:05]:
Whereas in this case you’re thinking about it slightly differently of like, who is not getting this skill and that’s who I’m pulling. And you’ll have kids that are missing different skills, but I would say like basic level, like the most foundational. Do they know their numbers 1 to 10, can they count to 10? Or the next step would be like, can they count to 20 and can they like subitizing up to five, seeing groups of numbers then move up to subitizing up to 10, starting with those and like who can’t do it and that’s who you’re pulling.
Tyler [00:18:37]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:18:38]:
So it could be two kids that in your class that don’t have it. It could be. And it could be six. And if that case, I would do three and three. I wouldn’t do all six.
Tyler [00:18:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you say, say you have like, okay, three specific areas or three different groups. Maybe there’s some overlap. Maybe there’s a kid that would fall into two of those categories. Would you recommend seeing those groups? I guess if it’s three, you might see one group twice a week. But would you try to stagger it? Would you try to flush out that one group that can’t do the counting one to 10 and try to hammer that home for two weeks, or would you rather touch and get to those other groups in the meantime? I guess in terms of your capacity, and I guess, you know, if you have an assistant or a para, that can help alleviate that. But would you personally rather go one at a time or would you stagger it out?
Zeba McGibbon [00:19:36]:
I wouldn’t do it like, back to back. If there’s a kid overlapping. I wouldn’t have them go back to back. Sure, I would. I would pick the most substantial skill for them and have them do that and not worry about the other one yet. Because the kids that are missing foundational skills, then it’s snowball. So they’re missing all of them. So you want them to be in every single group.
Zeba McGibbon [00:19:54]:
Pick the most foundational one and work on that with them for a while. Now, if you want to tell me specifically, like, what skills you’re thinking of, I could tell you. Okay, I would do this one this way. And I would do this.
Tyler [00:20:06]:
You should sequence it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think right now we’re at the. We’re in unit five, so we’re breaking apart numbers, and there’s just a couple kids who, like, have, like, really good skills overall. They’re just missing, like. It’s kind of just.
Tyler [00:20:20]:
Just skimming over the top of their head in terms of, like, the understanding of what’s being asked where we’re color coding or we’re putting in groups and we’re breaking them into expressions, and we’re understanding, okay, the cadence and the sequence of this number is going to go first because we. We see it on the left side or we are counting the green triangles first. So I think some of those, like, just. They’re just missing the point and the exercise a little bit. But I’m noticing it’s starting to become a pattern where I’m like, oh, are they missing something from a previous unit or lesson that might be now rearing its head? And I’m able to see a little bit more of it than I was in the past where they were able to fly through a unit two test, no problems, and I wasn’t catching it or seeing it. And now I’m starting to See some things that are not troubling but some.
Zeba McGibbon [00:21:10]:
Things getting stuck in the process.
Tyler [00:21:12]:
Yeah, yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:21:13]:
And what I’ve noticed about that unit in particular, we’re on unit four, so we’re not there yet this year. But what I remember from last year, but also as the year goes on, a lot of the activities they are trying to target a learning skill, but they end up mixing in a lot of direction following and executive functioning skills in there. So what you need to do is figure out is this executive function direction following or are they missing a math concept?
Tyler [00:21:41]:
Yeah, which is a little bit of both, I think.
Zeba McGibbon [00:21:43]:
Yeah, yeah. And I mean they overlap. They certainly like having difficulty in one is going to not help the other.
Tyler [00:21:49]:
Sure, sure.
Zeba McGibbon [00:21:50]:
But I would sit with them and do a similar kind of math skill. So for like number decomposition, I’d play a game with them that doesn’t involve all that direction following. Yeah, A go to for me for number decomposition is take a couple plastic bears, like start with up to five, no more than that, put a cup on some of them and have them guess how many bears are in the cave. Or take a cube, stack em together, show them five cubes, snap it, put it behind your back. No worksheet, no direction following. It’s just simply like can they break apart the number five or do they need to figure it out?
Tyler [00:22:25]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:22:26]:
In our district, like the curriculum goes a little beyond this, but in our district our goal is can they break apart numbers up to five by the end of the year?
Tyler [00:22:34]:
Oh wow. Okay. I think ours is 10 by the end of the year.
Zeba McGibbon [00:22:36]:
Yeah, all like seven. That’s really hard knowing all the combinations of seven. That’s like first grade. We do first grade is all the way up to 10.
Tyler [00:22:44]:
It does feel like it’s accelerated at a point where it seems.
Zeba McGibbon [00:22:48]:
Yeah, that is a little different. So then if that was you, if they can’t do up to five by now, I would be a little concerned. But for me I’m like, oh, whatever they’ll get to by the end of the year.
Tyler [00:22:57]:
Right, True.
Zeba McGibbon [00:22:57]:
But taking away the worksheet, taking away that direction following and just seeing can they play the game of it their.
Tyler [00:23:04]:
Bones, which I feel like most of the time.
Zeba McGibbon [00:23:06]:
Yeah, that helps you figure out is it the math or is it the direction following. And the other thing too is it goes really fast from concrete to abstract in the curriculum. Yes, I’ve noticed that knowing these kids struggle in this area, coming back to that accommodation of can I give them counters, can I give them bears? If you’re talking about like the red and yellow chips. That’s perfect. Like you got some red, some yellow. As opposed to just looking at a picture of green apples and red apples.
Tyler [00:23:34]:
Sure.
Zeba McGibbon [00:23:34]:
Or looking at apples and coloring some red, coloring some green. Give them the chips and have them do it first with their chips and then do it on the paper. And now I have an assistant in my room during math time. So if I knew these couple of kids are just not getting this, they need that physical thing. And we have activity one and activity two. And the worksheets are maybe double sided sometimes. Yeah, I would have those two or three kids work at a table with my assistant with the cubes or the chips, whatever. I’m going to use a day with the five frame.
Zeba McGibbon [00:24:06]:
And I would have her do it with them physically before ever doing on the paper. And they might get through two problems or one activity and not the second activity where I man in a whole other class.
Tyler [00:24:17]:
Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:24:18]:
She’s able to then target that more specifically. I know not everyone has the luxury of an assistant, but that’s how I would utilize my assistant. And if I didn’t have an assistant, I would say, okay, do with the cubes, check in with them, check in with everyone else, go back to them, which is so much harder. It’s obviously a luxury to have an assistant, but yeah, I would still do it with the physical concrete objects because that’s the disconnect.
Tyler [00:24:42]:
Yep. Oh, that makes sense. And I think too like that could be said for like subtraction in particular where you’re at in unit four, I saw just a lot of the abstract thought of crossing out a circle and then showing that on your page and then understanding that that’s taking away and you’re finding the difference versus so much of the time is spent on adding. And you really want to make sure kids can add first before they subtract. But I think that was another just weak spot in the last unit was kids knowing how to subtract and can do it in those settings. Like you’re saying where they’re taking the cubes and they take one away and they break it off and they tell us how many are left. Or they start with five fingers and then they take away the second number and they’re left with two. I think those kinds of things are getting lost a little bit in the world of kindergarten and it bums me out.
Tyler [00:25:36]:
And I think that it just shows that it’s all just so necessary and we can’t just be expecting pencil to paper and five Paragraph, essays. And it hurts my heart sometimes just seeing what we’re asking the kids to do at this age and really trying to understand, okay, how can I pull it back while also challenging the kids that need it and making sure they’re ready for first grade. Like, all those different juggling balls, I think is just such a tough thing to do right now in kindergarten because it’s just changed dramatically. And this is my fourth year teaching kindergarten, but I just feel like it’s nothing like what I experienced in my time in school or what I thought kindergarten was.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:22]:
Oh, definitely. Yeah.
Tyler [00:26:23]:
So I’m kind of going on another tangent, but I think, no, but I’m sure speaks to.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:27]:
Yeah, I’m sure everyone listening is like, nodding their head, being like, yes, exactly. I feel like I’m like a barrier. I’m, like, holding down the fort. Like, I’m protecting my kids by looking through the lessons and being like, well, this is just not developmentally appropriate. This person clearly never met a five year old when they wrote this lesson.
Tyler [00:26:46]:
Exactly. Yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:48]:
And there’s just more and more and more of that. And it is so frustrating because it’s like, did you even ask a kindergarten teacher? Did you ask anyone with an early childhood parent?
Tyler [00:26:58]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:59]:
Did you try it in a classroom first? But I think, you know, I. When I was in year one of this program, I was really mad all the time.
Tyler [00:27:07]:
Yes, Agreed.
Zeba McGibbon [00:27:08]:
I was so unhappy.
Tyler [00:27:09]:
It was too much to be put on us and the kids.
Zeba McGibbon [00:27:11]:
Yeah, yeah. And I was mad because it just made no sense. And it was just like, you never met anyone that, like, is teaches kindergarten. And I did a podcast episode with a math coach on, like, handling new curriculums. And I’ll link that in the show notes as well. And it really helped change my perspective a bit of, like. And I know year one is different. Like, year one for us.
Zeba McGibbon [00:27:35]:
They were like, please just buy the book. But this math coach was like, that’s silly. Do, like, what makes sense for your kids in front of you. And that’s the way. That’s the attitude I’ve been taking it this year of, like, I’m gonna stick to what is my main teaching goal for the lesson. And that is my goal. And it is so specific. And like I said, it builds on each other.
Tyler [00:27:55]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:27:56]:
And then how can I adapt this lesson to make sense for me logistically, for the kids development.
Tyler [00:28:03]:
How can I reach them? Yeah. How can I keep them engaged? Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:28:06]:
And like, if it’s not necessary, if it’s redundant, we’re skipping things because we Want to honor the importance of centers that hands on learning, the practice. And the other thing I was thinking a while back and I just remembered I was thinking it was if, you know, like a bunch of kids, like, if you’re like, I have six kids that I really want to learn this and that’s a big chunk of your class. Have a designated center for that for a long time and be like, I want you guys to start here and then you can choose wherever you go.
Tyler [00:28:33]:
Yep. Spend five minutes there and then you get there. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:28:36]:
Because. Especially because the curriculum does not care about centers.
Tyler [00:28:39]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:28:39]:
So you. If they’re missing that skill, like number writing, they don’t do enough of that in the curriculum. My kids need that.
Tyler [00:28:46]:
We had to supplement all the workbook. Yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:28:48]:
Yeah. I’m putting that as a center. So that’s something that it’s okay to do is like, it’s okay to switch up the center and be like, I want you to start there and. Or go. I want you to make sure you go there once a day. Right. And that just add extra practice for them. And that’s good for the kids that you’re like, I have much needier kids, but these other kids need to work on this skill too.
Zeba McGibbon [00:29:08]:
And I can’t be in two places at once. That’s a good way to work on that with them.
Tyler [00:29:12]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a very large school. It’s a K8, and we have five kindergarten classes, all that have over 20 kids in each class.
Zeba McGibbon [00:29:23]:
Oh my gosh, that’s huge.
Tyler [00:29:24]:
With almost no para support for any of our classes. So one of the ideas that we had now just being in kind of like a budget deficit this year and not having additional support. We’ve leaned on a lot of like the teacher assistants, like some of the middle schoolers that have a period that they can come help with. So that that could be a good option for them to kind of man one of those stations.
Zeba McGibbon [00:29:46]:
Mm.
Tyler [00:29:47]:
The other thing we were thinking about was looking at the grade level as a whole and trying to identify those real low kids that are struggling across the board and then trying to potentially even on the other side with some high flyers to try to do some kind of cross grouping. And it’s just we’ve never really been able to figure out how that can work and play out. I don’t know if you have any experience doing something like that where, you know, maybe on Wednesdays all of the kids that are struggling with this concept from across the grade, whether it’s, you know, maybe 12 total. They might get together with me and I have a specific activity planned, and then I might see them for a month or something. I think that was just like something that was coming up a lot recently. And just with such a big group, we just don’t want to see those gaps widen, especially as they. As it gets harder and harder, first and second, third grade. To try to capture some moments to be able to do stuff like that.
Tyler [00:30:47]:
I didn’t know if you had any thoughts on what that could look like or how we could facilitate something like that, actually.
Zeba McGibbon [00:30:55]:
Yeah. So first of all, with the. Utilizing 8th graders or middle schoolers. Great idea. And having the man. A center that you’re like, I know this is like going to help fill a gap for some of my. Give extra practice to a skill that my kids need.
Tyler [00:31:09]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:09]:
So I want to make sure there’s an adult with our quote unquote adult. Like, they want to make sure there’s someone with them to guide them through it.
Tyler [00:31:15]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:16]:
I have a fourth grader that comes in my room every day and helps me at center. And she just honestly is like. Helps with the iPad issues.
Tyler [00:31:23]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:23]:
Plugging and unplugging the headphones. She helps with, like, the kids are like, yeah, like, how do I spell this? And I told her, don’t tell them how to spell it. Just sound it out for them.
Tyler [00:31:32]:
Yep, yep.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:33]:
But she’s great. And it’s just like that extra body of like, the kids just need someone else. And I can only be in so many places.
Tyler [00:31:40]:
Yes, yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:41]:
So absolutely. And when I was in middle school, I would have loved to have gotten down.
Tyler [00:31:45]:
Exactly. You know, like to hang out with the little ones. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:48]:
Yeah. So definitely utilize. That is one benefit to such a large school.
Tyler [00:31:53]:
Right? Absolutely.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:54]:
Switching kids across classes. I have done it. Like I said, we have a designated rest time. That’s our intervention block. It’s been cut. Cut, cut, cut, cut.
Tyler [00:32:02]:
Yeah, we don’t have it anymore.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:03]:
And chopped down. And that is when we did it. When we did do this.
Tyler [00:32:08]:
That would make sense.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:09]:
We had four classes at the time. And it worked because I might have had one kid that needed to work on this skill, but the other classes all had one too. And so that makes it good.
Tyler [00:32:21]:
Exactly.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:22]:
Right. Twelve seems like a lot.
Tyler [00:32:24]:
Yeah. Okay.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:26]:
So.
Tyler [00:32:26]:
So. So it’d be. It’d be kind of. It would depend on the numbers.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:31]:
Yeah. I would say no one should have more than a small group size, which would be four, five, max. Six.
Tyler [00:32:38]:
Yeah. I’m even thinking of it, like, as like a Little like, mini whole group lesson where everyone else is off at centers and I’m like, giving this lesson to 10 kids. But I see what you’re saying there, though, that that probably doesn’t lend itself to what you’re trying to accomplish. Really.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:53]:
Yeah.
Tyler [00:32:54]:
You still might run into the daydreaming and the touching and the kindergarten stuff if it’s that size. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:33:00]:
Yeah. And it’s harder to be more targeted. And then that adds like 10 kids to your room potentially. And you’re trying to make sure that they’re okay. It centers and now you have 10 other kids, and they’re not your kids. You don’t really know them. Like, that’s a lot. So my suggestion would be to keep the group small, especially when you’re first starting this as a team.
Tyler [00:33:19]:
True. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:33:20]:
You need to.
Tyler [00:33:21]:
Success. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:33:22]:
Make sure you have time to, like, show the kids where to go and how to find the class they’re going to. Because, like, that was the hard thing of, like. Yeah, my assistant could walk the kid to their room. Or like, you know, I had a responsible kid that I could go and collect the kids. Or, you know, just like there’s.
Tyler [00:33:37]:
You gotta know, there’s the logistics of it. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:33:40]:
Who’s not gonna get lost in the hallway?
Tyler [00:33:42]:
For sure. One thing that we did this year, we had it more fleshed out last year. We tried it and it didn’t work so well, but we did called kindergarten camp, where at the beginning of the year, the kids got to, like, rotate around. They had their homeroom teacher that they were assigned from, like, the rosters, and then they got to go spend like an hour. They would go rotate and go get to, like, be with the other classrooms and the other teachers.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:03]:
So that they should know a lot.
Tyler [00:34:05]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:05]:
Okay, good.
Tyler [00:34:06]:
And it’s all in the same hallway. But I’m not saying that that’s. I’m not taking that as the only part of your. No, it’s just something. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:13]:
It’s just something to consider for sure. And then the other thing is, you said, like, on Wednesday, I’m going to make sure, like, that’s the day we’ll switch kids. To me, if they’re really struggling with the missing skill, they need to work on it every day.
Tyler [00:34:27]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:27]:
Even if it’s for five minutes because it’s so targeted. It just. You need to touch on it every day.
Tyler [00:34:33]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:34]:
So to me, it’s like, that’s pointless effort if you guys are doing that just one day a week.
Tyler [00:34:39]:
Sure.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:39]:
If you can do it every Day, like, come to me right after lunch for the five minutes of quiet time, and we’ll do this. Or, like, come to me in the morning, five minutes before morning meeting, even if it’s not math time. I think that’s.
Tyler [00:34:52]:
You make it work for you.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:53]:
Yeah, yeah. But you need to do it every day. The other option would be it might be easier when you’re first starting something like this is have, like, a buddy class. I don’t know if you share a door with someone.
Tyler [00:35:02]:
We do. Yeah. Through classic. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:04]:
Yeah. Perfect. So, like, just start with the two of you.
Tyler [00:35:07]:
That’s true.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:07]:
And be like, let’s make a small group. Well, I’ll take these kids, you take those kids, and let’s see how it goes for a week of, like, the first five minutes of centers. Because the other thing that’s hard with this curriculum for doing this kind of thing at center time is you might be done and ready for centers 15 minutes before the next door neighbor is ready for centers.
Tyler [00:35:26]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:26]:
And it just depends on the class, the lesson, how it’s going, how the flow’s going. So it’s hard to be like, come on in to start at centers, and.
Tyler [00:35:34]:
It’S not always exactly aligned.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:36]:
Yeah, right. So that’s why maybe a designated time you can depend on that’s not associated with math that you can do every day and start small with buddy classes.
Tyler [00:35:46]:
Cool. No, that makes sense.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:48]:
The other thing with those kids to think about, too, is, like, sometimes for those kids, we utilize Dreambox. It’s like an additional expense, but we use it more like an intervention for kids that are really missing background information. They can do Dreambox on the iPad. I don’t know the cost of it. It’s a district thing.
Tyler [00:36:04]:
Yeah. We used to have happy numbers, and I really liked that as an extension challenge. We didn’t renew that license this year, but, yeah, it always kind of comes down to the funding a little bit.
Zeba McGibbon [00:36:15]:
Yeah.
Tyler [00:36:15]:
Some of that stuff.
Zeba McGibbon [00:36:16]:
Yeah, we’re. We’re in that right now. But if there’s something like that that you could utilize in the iPad, where they could do it independently and fill gaps for a couple minutes every day, that’s a great option. And also sending things home with parents. That’s why I love my home support bags that I have. It has directions on there, and they’re, like, easy to use, easy to do at home, and parents find it quite helpful. And most of the time, when I send stuff home, even if it’s. And I tell the parents, I’m like, just five Minutes, like no more.
Zeba McGibbon [00:36:45]:
Just a few minutes. Yeah, every little bit helps. And I have a whole podcast episode coming out just before this one. So last week on how I do that. So that’s another way to like touch on that in all the ways that you can.
Tyler [00:36:59]:
Yeah, I think that’s frame it well because I think a lot of times I shy away from homework or packets just because I don’t feel like it’s appropriate a lot of times. But I think being able to have the right conversations with parents and understanding like, hey, this is something that we’ve been working on for a while, so. And so is still not getting it. And I think it would be really beneficial to do, you know, five minute touch points a couple times a week. It doesn’t need to be homework. It doesn’t need to be a lot of extra stressor. Don’t try to, you know, make it priority over the other scheduling conflicts that you have. But just knowing that, yeah, we’re taking this chance to minimize gaps and really try to help your student in something that they need to do.
Tyler [00:37:43]:
I think I’ve used and seen a lot of your products on tpt and I think it’s just all very well orchestrated and there’s a lot of great. Just like you said, the directions are right there. It’s very like hands on. There’s usually like a game that is accompanied with it. Gamifying things I think goes a long way in kinder space. So I can vouch for your products and in that way that, that says like, it’s okay to be giving as take home or as a packet or something that can be worked on this month as we head into the next unit or chapter or whatever. So.
Zeba McGibbon [00:38:19]:
Yeah. Perfect. Well, guys, I didn’t even ask him to say that. Thank you.
Tyler [00:38:24]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:38:24]:
I hope that this helped and helped you. Just think about some possibilities and you know, whenever we get a new curriculum or a new routine, it takes time. I’m in my 11th year and every year I’m trying something new a little bit and rethinking things. And that’s why I love teaching. Yes.
Tyler [00:38:44]:
Keeps you on your toes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:38:45]:
Yeah, absolutely. But so it’s grace and permission to try it. Be flexible with like, it may not be the way it used to be. It may look a little different. But I think the key point to remember is when you have kids missing foundational skills, you want to really target the most important skill for them and just focus on that for a little while and just little, little bursts of time.
Tyler [00:39:11]:
Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:39:11]:
And then otherwise seeing how you can support them in what you’re already doing.
Tyler [00:39:15]:
Yeah, definitely. Well, I appreciate it. This has been super helpful, so thank you so much.
Zeba McGibbon [00:39:20]:
Awesome. Well, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to the Kindergarten Cafe podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information and resources, or just head straight to kindergartencafe.org for all the goodies. If you liked this episode, the best ways to show your support are to subscribe, leave a review, or send it to a friend. I’ll be back next week with even more Kindergarten tips. See you then.