If you don’t allow that independent time where they are showing you whether they want to write or not, showing you whether they draw pictures or not, if you don’t allow that, you don’t know what to teach them. You don’t know what they’re ready for.
~ Melissa from Episode 114 of The Kindergarten Cafe Podcast
Episode Summary
Let’s talk about the real kind of kindergarten writing, where every student is on their own unique journey.
In this episode, I’m joined by literacy consultant and podcast host Melissa Morrison (of Getting Students to Write) to unpack what it looks like to teach writing in a developmentally appropriate way. We talk about why some students are still scribbling while others are crafting full stories and how to meet all of them where they are.
Plus, Melissa shares how teachers can slowly shift their practice to better support young writers, even if your current curriculum doesn’t match developmentally appropriate expectations.
Whether you’re new to kindergarten or just want to make writing more manageable, this episode will help you see your students (and yourself!) in a whole new light.
In this episode I share:
- What “writing” really means in kindergarten (hint: it’s not all about sentences)
- Why oral language is the foundation of early writing
- How to support kids at every stage – from scribbles to sentences
- The role of labeling, drawing, and invented spelling in writing development
- How to make writing time more engaging and meaningful (without ditching your curriculum)
Resources:
Connect with Melissa:
- LinkedIn – @melissa-morrison
- Website – teaching-to-transform.com
- Podcast - Getting Students to Write
Connect with Zeba:
- Instagram – @kindergartencafe
- Facebook – @kindergartencafe
- Website – www.kindergartencafe.org
- Tik Tok – @kindergartencafe
Read the Transcript
Zeba McGibbon [00:00:00]:
Hey, teacher friends, it’s Zeba from Kindergarten Cafe. And today’s episode I have on a special guest. Her name is Melissa and she has a company called Teaching to Transform as well as a podcast called Getting Students to Write. I was actually on her podcast talking about kindergarten literacy, but I have her on the podcast today to talk about a developmental approach to teaching writing and making sure that we’re being responsive to the kids in front of us and how teaching writing is a journey in kindergarten and not everyone takes it on the same speed. And so how can we support kids that are in different places and moving along at different paces than maybe our curriculum would want? All kinds of things like that. So definitely give this episode a good listen and there is going to be a lot that we can take away from it.
Melissa Morrison [00:00:54]:
You’re listening to the Kindergarten Cafe podcast where kindergarten teachers come to learn classroom tested tips and tricks and teaching ideas they can use in their classroom right away. I’m Zeba, creator and founder of Kindergarten Cafe, and I help kindergarten teachers with everything they need from arrival to dismissal in order to save time, work smarter, not harder, and support students with engaging and purposeful lessons. I’m here to cheer you on through your successes and breakthroughs and offer support and resources so you never have to feel stuck or alone. Ready to start saving time and reducing your stress, all while using effective and purposeful lessons that students love.
Zeba McGibbon [00:01:40]:
Let’s get started.
Zeba McGibbon [00:01:44]:
Welcome, everyone.
Zeba McGibbon [00:01:46]:
Today I have a special guest, Melissa. She has an awesome podcast called Getting Students to Write. And I actually got to be featured on that podcast maybe six months ago, a while ago. But I’m so excited to now have you here on my podcast because you are an expert on all things literacy, but specifically writing. And that is a common question. A common concern I have from a lot of kindergarten teachers is, you know, getting students to learn to write. It is a big process. So happy to have you here.
Zeba McGibbon [00:02:15]:
Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Melissa Morrison [00:02:17]:
Sure. I am happy to be here. It’s exciting to talk to you again. It was nice to have you on my podcast. I always love a good podcast.
Melissa Morrison [00:02:25]:
So my name is Melissa Morrison and I’ve been in education for a while, about 20 years maybe. But I didn’t go to school for teaching. I didn’t start in that field. I actually said I would never be a teacher because my mom was a teacher. And I ended up working with students, well, with children who had autism, in a program. And then that eventually led me into becoming a one on one aid in the school district. I wasn’t loving the travel that I was doing in my position. And then I was there and ended up in, like, a Title 1 position as an aide, and then eventually said, okay, I guess I’ll go to school to be a teacher.
Melissa Morrison [00:03:06]:
And so I went the alternate route. And I started. And I taught second grade first, and I did first grade. And at one point, I had my own coach, someone from something called the Children’s Literacy Initiative. And it was amazing. And I loved what she did for me and for my work and all the training that we got as well. But I also just loved this idea of being someone who helps teachers and supports them, like, right there next to them in our job, because it’s so hard. And we get this training.
Melissa Morrison [00:03:41]:
You know, we get training. Sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s not. But even when you love it and you want to try it, then there’s, like, no one there telling you if it’s working or how you know how to adjust or how to make it better. So I was like, oh, I would love to have that job, but I never thought I would. I thought I would just stay as a teacher forever. But then I ended up wanting to take a break. I was having a difficult time as a teacher, and just, like, personally, I needed some time to take a break, and so I did. But when I left my position, I was just kind of still interested in all things literacy.
Melissa Morrison [00:04:14]:
And I have all this time to read and to follow people and all of that. And so I ended up helping my best friend in her classroom with writing. And when I. Just volunteering, you know, going in and helping her. And when I did, all these teachers were interested in, I want help with writing. You know, I went home with writing, and it just ended up causing me to get my business license. And I started to put on workshops privately. And then that led to my first job.
Melissa Morrison [00:04:40]:
So then I started. I started being a literacy consultant. It just kind of happened somewhat organically or magically, I don’t know. But so I’ve been doing it for. This is my seventh year, and I decided to focus on writing because it is my favorite and because I feel like it’s neglected. And teachers need so much help just to feel confident and to really enjoy enjoy it. That’s what I want, is for teachers and students to enjoy writing time. I love that.
Zeba McGibbon [00:05:06]:
Yeah. I think the power of a coach is sometimes underestimated and underutilized. You know, it’s intimidating to have someone in your classroom and you can feel judged if it’s not done correctly. And you know, but, but you’re right, you don’t get that really feedback. I mean, you get the faces that you’re seeing in front of you, the students, and you get results of data. But, you know, little tiny tweaks that you can make that can have a really big, powerful difference you just might not have thought of or you might not have tried.
Melissa Morrison [00:05:39]:
Right. I mean, I think a coach is someone, I mean, really, they can just be another set of eyes and then they show you what they see. You know, they. And they reflect. It’s like, I love being like a mirror for someone because I love to show all the great things that people are doing that we don’t give ourselves credit for. So I love to do that as well because that builds up teachers confidence and just feel okay, like I am doing something right, you know. But yeah, just to be sometimes even that set of eyes, it’s like, well, do you notice this? What do you think you can do? You know, and yes, it is difficult. I had a wonderful coach, but I had my walls up and I was defensive and I felt like she was here to decide if I was doing a good job or not or, you know, that’s what I felt in my head.
Melissa Morrison [00:06:18]:
And so it took a while to. I respected her and everything, but it just took a while to just, you know, let myself be coached. And once I did, it was just amazing. So, yeah, I mean, I definitely find it to be a very big deal when I come into classrooms and I try to make sure I do as best I can. It’s hard as a consultant who’s not in that school all the time, but to, you know, make it safe and to just do whatever it is the teacher really needs. And sometimes it’s not about writing instruction because everybody has different things, you know, kind of going on. But yeah, I definitely understand the magnitude of having someone come in your classroom.
Zeba McGibbon [00:06:59]:
Yeah. And I. It’s something I’ve started exploring with, actually is like supporting teachers in that way. And I’m loving it. Like you said, I love being able to help teachers and make things more manageable for them.
Melissa Morrison [00:07:10]:
Yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:07:10]:
Because we need good teachers and we need to be manageable for them.
Zeba McGibbon [00:07:15]:
But yeah. So let’s talk about writing, since you have so much expertise there. You know, I think especially if you’re new to kindergarten. It took me, it took me a while to figure this out. And I learned kind of the hard way, when you’re new to kindergarten, you are used especially if you’re used to older grades, you kind of expect kids to be writing a lot sooner than they are. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about what those expectations should be or what sort of like, the process is, you see, for kids learning to write.
Melissa Morrison [00:07:46]:
Yeah, there is so much to it. We could just talk about this question this whole time. And, you know, I am still learning myself a lot about development of writers and just the stages that children, the people go through. But there we do have to remember that they are writers. This is what is so important to me to think about, like, they are writers regardless of what they’re putting down on their paper. And so being a writer doesn’t just mean that you can write words and sentences. Right. And so what it can, you know, if you think about a toddler that you have seen in your life before, they scribble things and then, you know, they give it to you and tell you they made it for you, and it’s a card or it’s a letter or whatever it might be.
Melissa Morrison [00:08:32]:
And that is one of the first steps, is even understanding that what you. That you can communicate something on paper. And it does often start with scribbles. It can also start with pictures and pictures that don’t look like pictures. And that’s okay, right? It’s. They have steps and stages of even drawing, understanding, you know, how to use shapes you can imagine. I’m sure a lot of us have seen that person. I have a.
Melissa Morrison [00:08:59]:
One of my daughters was hanging on the wall for a long time where it’s just like a circle with something for, like, eyes and maybe a mouth, and then the lines coming down from the circle that are the legs, and there’s no right. And. And all of that drawing, too, is part of writing in, because it’s communicating, but it’s also just one of the stages. Like, we can start in pictures. But the. I’m learning more and more, too, that the oral language is a huge part that we have to remember. That is a stage of writing. And all throughout the stages of writing, this language development is so important.
Melissa Morrison [00:09:37]:
And so we have to remember. And Matt Glover and Katie Woodrow have done work on this, but we have to remember that that is part of it, too. And so it’s not just what is on the paper. It’s the language that you’re using while.
Melissa Morrison [00:09:52]:
You’Re teaching all day long.
Melissa Morrison [00:09:54]:
Right. And then it’s getting them to express themselves in that way. And even when they are just drawing a picture to talk about it and have them Explain what it is like, that’s part of their writing as well. And so I actually don’t like to think about expectations of what kindergartners should be doing. I just really like to focus more on what they are doing and knowing that whatever they are doing is a stage in the process. And you just want to find where they are and remember that it’s about the language, it’s about the pictures. It’s then eventually going to be about the transcription or the. What you think of as writing.
Melissa Morrison [00:10:33]:
All of those things come into play. And I would just kind of look up stages of writing development and you’re going to see images of what writing can progress to. And it just helps you to see, like, okay, they are doing something and they are. This is where they are. They’re here. And so I like to think of it that way as, like, finding out where they are instead of thinking about where they need to be, if that makes sense.
Zeba McGibbon [00:10:57]:
I love that you’re saying, like, everything that I’m sure people, you know, who are regular listeners to my podcast are, like, nodding their head like, yes. Ziba talks about this all the time. Like, you have to kindergarten especially, but true, for every grade, you have to meet kids where they are. And so often we are pushing these expectations that we have in our head that maybe district people might have that without understanding the developmental progression onto the kids. And when we put those expectations on them, like, first of all, we’re frustrated and disappointed and maybe questioning our teaching that I’ve been there. That’s how I know that. But also, it can cause behaviors of the kids because you’re asking them to do more than they’re ready for.
Melissa Morrison [00:11:38]:
Right.
Zeba McGibbon [00:11:38]:
So meeting them where they are is so important. And I love your shift of there. They are writers, they are writing, they are communicating in their way and what they’re writing for.
Melissa Morrison [00:11:49]:
Right. And there’s so many different ways to think about it. And I guess too that maybe I. When I think of the word expectation, I think of traditional expectations that you might hear, like, oh, by the end of the year, we want them to write a paragraph, let’s say. And so that’s definitely what I don’t wanna think about. Because honestly, they can do so much more than that. They can do more than write a paragraph. They can write a book.
Melissa Morrison [00:12:13]:
It’s. And eventually, honestly, I think that paragraphs come later because paragraphs have so much formality to them, I guess. And I don’t. I don’t know how I want to say this, but I See, paragraphs developing in a different way than. Than I think we traditionally think about it developing. Like, I think it has to come almost from taking this whole book that you have written a story or a teaching book, and then understanding whether or not you’re really talking about one thing or if you’re talking about many things. And so, like, each of those pages might actually turn into a paragraph. Like, really, if we think about teaching kindergartners a paragraph, and we’re like, okay, we’re going to talk about falling, and we’re going to name all these things that happen in fall, and then we’re going to close it with a sentence.
Melissa Morrison [00:13:08]:
But that’s actually not a great paragraph.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:11]:
Like, do you see that as an expectation? I’m kind of surprised to hear that.
Melissa Morrison [00:13:15]:
I think sometimes, yes. Some people think that by the end of kindergarten, some people try to definitely by, like, the middle of first grade. I have certainly. I’m not saying it’s a good expectation, but I’ve certainly heard teachers say they think they should have this paragraph written.
Zeba McGibbon [00:13:32]:
Oh, my goodness. I’m gonna say right now, I don’t think kindergartners should be writing paragraphs.
Melissa Morrison [00:13:35]:
Good. Thank you. Me neither. Okay, good. So I. But I think it’s thinking about an expectation as, what do you do as a writer? And so do you come up with ideas? Do you have the language where you can talk about what it is you’re. You’re going to eventually write? Because that’s what comes first. Do you engage in writing? Do you understand that when you put something on paper, you can communicate to someone.
Melissa Morrison [00:14:04]:
Do you know the elements of a story? Because that can be told in a pic, in pictures, too. Right. And so. And you know, Yes. I think that a kindergartner, if you allow the time for it, should be able to make, like, a book a day. They should be going through pages and pages a day of. And at first it might be scribbles, and then it might be pictures and scribbles, and I might be pictures and some labeling that’s going to look different. But, like, they are going through a process of writing whatever that might look like over and over and over again.
Melissa Morrison [00:14:36]:
And it could be, like, once a day. Those are the kinds of expectations I would want to think about.
Zeba McGibbon [00:14:41]:
I like that shift because it’s. It’s just reinforcing the idea that kindergarten is setting the foundation for them as learners. They are learning the routine of how to learn. And so here they are. They’re learning the routine of how to be A writer and how to write that writers come up with an idea, they plan it out, they put it on paper, they talk about it.
Melissa Morrison [00:15:00]:
Yeah. And that they are to understand themselves as a writer. And it sounds crazy as kindergarteners, but it. It is important for them to understand what it means to be a writer. But then also, like, oh, I like to write about this, or I like to write with markers and all the little things that they might do, because that just develops into something more sophisticated as they go on. But it’s also about that engagement and that interest in it and making it fun and exciting for them and meaningful for them in a way that it’s meaningful for that toddler who is so excited that scribbled something down and gave it to you, because they understood, like, what they were doing, that meaning is so important. Because then, like you said, that sets this foundation to carry on that they identify as a writer and that they enjoy it. That should go on with them, because then that helps their progression of skills as well.
Zeba McGibbon [00:15:56]:
So let’s. I guess let’s talk a little bit about that meaningful and purposefulness to writing, because I think some curriculums and, you know, some teachers, they. When they think about teaching writing, they think about it more in this whole group kind of structured, like, let’s all fill out this sentence together, or let’s copy and paste the sentence, or let’s all do this exact same page where you finish the sentence at. You know, do you want to talk a little bit about what your thoughts are on that? Or, like, how you would maybe go from that to what you’re envisioning for writing?
Melissa Morrison [00:16:38]:
Yeah, it is so complicated. I will just totally. I will say that is so complicated because, yes, we’re supposed to, even in kindergarten. Right. Start teaching the transcript. I always say transcription when I want to talk about writing, like letters and words and sentences, because I think it’s so important, as I’ve already said, to remember that writing is so much more than that. Right. So it’s composing.
Melissa Morrison [00:17:02]:
There’s this composing part of writing that you have to start thinking about from the beginning. But we know that we are still supposed to teach letters and words and get them to put those words on the page. And so it’s a very interesting balance and, you know, an interesting way to think about, like, how do I make both of those things happen? Especially when I think about the time that I have during the day. And I think it’s important to remember that all the things that you are doing throughout the day is informing so many things. Right. So like your discussion and during, you know, morning meeting time, if you have that is is helping their language development. Right. And so all.
Melissa Morrison [00:17:47]:
There’s all these things that you do throughout the day that are helping them as writers. So I think that’s important to remember and that you can talk about things that you think are about writing during reading time or phonics time or vice versa. Right. And so like in phonics, when you’re really teaching them the letters, the letter names, letter sounds with how to make the letters, when you go into writing, even though you are, I hope you’re letting them write on their own and you’re talking about things like how do I, you know, tell my story and how do I draw a picture for a story? You can also then bring it. Oh, and remember, we learned the letter B and, you know, you have a boy in your story or whatever. So it’s just, it. It doesn’t have to be so separate. I think that’s one thing to think about.
Zeba McGibbon [00:18:31]:
But you said, I hope you’re letting them write on their own.
Melissa Morrison [00:18:34]:
Oh, yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:18:35]:
What does that look. I mean, I agree, first of all, but what does that look like to a teacher who might not know, especially in kindergarten, what that could be like?
Melissa Morrison [00:18:43]:
Yes. So when you were saying like, okay, everyone is together and we’re going to write this or we’re going to copy this sentence, I would say one it starts with. So I will talk about what it looks like, but it starts with your mindset of what writing is. That is one of my biggest. I don’t know what to say ideas that I talk about. It’s such a shift what writing really is. And it’s all the things that we were just talking about. It’s not just getting words on the page and making sure that their paper looks a certain way.
Melissa Morrison [00:19:10]:
And so I think when we are worried about when we want them to copy a sentence or we want them to all write it in this certain way, that’s what the focus might be on me making sure that they get something down on the paper. But I think there’s a couple things to think about. Is one, that not all these kindergartners are ready to write all those words in that sentence and copying them is not going to teach it to them. Right. So that’s one thing to think about that. And when you were talking about meeting them where they are, if they are only scribbling or if they’re only drawing pictures in their writing, and you know, they don’t even know all their Letters, then we’re not ready to do that. So one thing is thinking about where your kids are and whether or not they’re ready to work on sentence writing. I definitely, I, I don’t see at any time it’s, it’s helpful to copy a sentence, copying letters, or watch, you know, the teacher model and they try it, but definitely not copying.
Melissa Morrison [00:20:06]:
Right. So I think that’s why the mindset is so important and to remember, keep telling yourself, like, it’s not just about these writing of the letters, it’s about all the things that writers need. Okay. And so when I talk about. And if we need to go back to something, you just let me know if I’ve missed answering question. So. And then when we talk about them writing on their own, what I mean is that although there might be times where you’ve modeled something and you want them to try it right then, because you’ve just taught it to them total, that’s exactly what you should do. Whether it’s writing a letter or drawing a picture or whatever it might be.
Melissa Morrison [00:20:41]:
But hopefully it’s something that’s in your classes doing a proximal development. Okay. But you have time to do that. But then they need to also have time to write authentically on their own, where they start from scratch, where they write what they want. Because every writer is in a different stage of development and every writer has something that they need to work on or get better at. Right? And so engagement is one of those things. Like you’re gonna have kindergartners that don’t actually wanna pick up the marker and write the book and. Right.
Melissa Morrison [00:21:17]:
You can picture them. And so that engagement is what needs to be worked on for that student. Or maybe it’s a behavior thing. Right? And that’s.
Zeba McGibbon [00:21:27]:
But if it is giving kids, anytime you can give kids choice and autonomy over their learning, they’re going to be more engaged, they’re not going to make behaviors, right.
Melissa Morrison [00:21:36]:
And it’s going to take a while, right. To find like, what’s going to engage them. And so even if you said, well, I am giving them choice, I’m letting them write whatever they want, but for some reason they’re not wanting to. And so then you have to find out what that reason is. Are they not feeling confident enough to do it? Have they never done it before? You know, there are so many different things. And so you have to kind of keep having that expectation of like, well, this is what we do. But then also listening to them during other times of the day, talking to them about, hey, well, what’s going on? You know, what would you want to do? Like, why don’t you want to do this? And trying to figure out what’s going on? And so if you don’t allow that independent time where they are showing you whether they want to write or not, showing you whether they draw pictures or not, if you don’t allow that, you don’t know what to teach them. You don’t know what they’re ready for.
Melissa Morrison [00:22:29]:
And again, it comes back to it. Not just. It’s not just transcription. It’s all the things that have to go into being a writer. And as kindergarten teachers and preschool teachers, we are setting that foundation and making sure they are engaged and making sure they do feel like a writer and making sure they know how to hold a marker. You know, I know there’s a lot of things these kindergarten, kindergarten teachers have to do, but that’s why you need that independent time when you like, if.
Zeba McGibbon [00:22:59]:
You picture a writing lesson, what are you picturing it’s structured as?
Melissa Morrison [00:23:03]:
So first I want to say that a writing lesson can come any part of the time, it’s part of the day. Because again, like, that morning message might actually be a sneaky little writing short because you’re, you’re doing language development or you’ve used a letter that you guys just, just talked about. And same with phonics and reading and all of that, because you might do your read aloud and then say, oh, remember you guys, some of you were writing a story and this read aloud, this story, they have this, this character, and they tell us who they are right away in the beginning, you know, just different things like that. So when it comes to actual writing lesson times, there could be a lesson where you’re doing a shared writing and so you’re the one with the pen and you were doing the writing, but you’re soliciting this student’s help. So that to me is like a separate kind of lesson outside of when I think about, like more of a workshop model lesson. So a shared writing could be a type of writing lesson that you do, and I can talk more about it.
Zeba McGibbon [00:24:02]:
If you want to.
Melissa Morrison [00:24:02]:
And then a writing lesson could also be more of like a mini lesson where, you know, there’s one thing that you want to teach your writers that day. So if you’ve had them writing independently and you notice that most of your students are maybe doing an all about kind of book, like they just pick a thing, flowers, their mom, and they talk about it, but they don’t ever really Try to tell a story. Maybe that’s something you want to introduce to them. If students are. You have assessed your students and you say most of them are not using shapes in their drawing, for example, then you might do one explicit lesson about using a shape and then do another lesson, another day about using an S shape. So you explicitly tell them what you’re going to teach them, model it for them, have them practice it with you in some way that could be orally, it could be. It could be on like a whiteboard, it could be on a piece of paper. And then tell them again, what did you learn? And then send them off to their independent writing time.
Zeba McGibbon [00:25:05]:
That’s great. Yeah, that’s how I structure mine. But I think for people that don’t, especially if, you know, some of their curriculums have it, or it’s just what they’ve always done or they’ve seen. Like, I’ve definitely heard of teachers that are more like, let’s do this writing activity where we’re all to the same response, like, maybe to something we read or something, or some kind of, like, we’re all doing the same thing. But we’ve talked a lot about the value of that independent time and getting to practice that independent writing. I want to switch gears just a little bit before we wrap up. And you know, at this time of year, end of fall, beginning of winter, at this point, kids have learned almost all their letters and sounds, we hope. And so I’m usually, I usually tell teachers, like, it’s not worth trying to.
Zeba McGibbon [00:25:50]:
Like, you can start doing some labeling. But I really am not pressuring my kids to write until they’ve learned the letters and sounds. There’s no point in that. They don’t have the foundational skills they need. So to get from starting to label to writing sentences, we sort of make that push. Like late winter or mid winter, I would say I start doing more work with sentences. Or beginning of winter, I don’t know. Around the winter time, I start doing Matt.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:15]:
You know, this is where the kindergarten magic starts to happen, because you start to see it start to click for the kids. And this is what I love, because they go from they’ve learned in their letters and sounds to writing sentences. But it doesn’t happen overnight. So how would you support a teacher in transitioning kids from that labeling? They’ve learned their letters and sounds to writing a sentence.
Melissa Morrison [00:26:35]:
So I would say that. So when you think about labeling at this point, are you imagining that they have like one letter labels that some of them have beginning Ending sounds like different.
Zeba McGibbon [00:26:46]:
I would say it depends on the kid. But the kid who’s ready for sentences are the kids who are doing like a full word, beginning, middle, and sound, or even they’re writing, you know, a word on the bottom of the page to say, like play date, you know, or recess. Right? So something about what they’re drawing, but it’s not a complete thought, right?
Melissa Morrison [00:27:09]:
Okay. So first of all, I would say that if you are really having them independently, right? And at this point in time, if you’ve been, you know, you know that some of your students are drawing more than others, right? So you might still have a couple of kids who are only writing one letter labels, but then you might have had other students who they, they were doing that in October and they’ve been writing words. Now, oftentimes those students are attempting to write sentences at the bottom of their, of their papers, right? Like with their pictures. Some of them will already have some words written, have some sentences written. But I think we also have to make sure that throughout this time, you have been doing the language composition part as well. And so without that, it would be a hard transition into sentences. And so one thing that Matt Glover and I just say this, because he, like, recently taught me this, was that he says that when students are, whether they have just pictures, they have pictures in some labels, you’re still, when you go to them, when they share with a, with another writer, when you ask them to, you know, read their book, that they say everything they would want to say even if they couldn’t write it. And then even if they are just writing like playground or, you know, flower, one word at the bottom that they say, say everything.
Melissa Morrison [00:28:39]:
So you’re still making sure they’re saying all of that. So that’s very important. And then also I like to say, like, okay, so if, let’s say they had flower labeled or on down on their paper, and I, and I asked them, what did you want to, you know, what were you saying? Or tell me your book or what have you. And they say, my dad gave my mom flower. And then I might say, so what if you wanted to write all of that, what would you do first? And kind of see what, what they would do, what they were, okay, go ahead and write that and just make sure you can kind of see where they are. What are they paying attention to, what are they doing, not doing? So maybe they need to, you know, point to the page for each word. I think that can be really helpful. But also the modeling that you’re doing in your lessons.
Melissa Morrison [00:29:25]:
And so to support that transition, you’re going to show them things like that as a class. So you have your writing and you only have word labels. And so modeling how you’re going to say that as a sentence and then how you’re going to write that as a sentence, and maybe it would be part of it, you know, at first, and then you transition into moving to writing the full sentence. So we have to make sure. We’re always modeling. We have to make sure we keep that language composition part in it as well. And we have to encourage them to keep putting more and more words on their page, whether we know they’re going to write in a nice complete sentence or not. And it’s okay if it isn’t, because, again, they’re still going along this stage of development.
Melissa Morrison [00:30:10]:
We just have to keep assessing it to see where they are and seeing how we can. We can help them.
Zeba McGibbon [00:30:16]:
And it’s okay when they’re first starting, just so everyone knows, for it to be one letter, one beginning letter for each word, and they’re all jumbled together and it looks like one long word. Like that’s part of the progression.
Melissa Morrison [00:30:29]:
Yes. Thank you. And so I was going to say I’ve had a student who, in kindergarten, she was a struggling reader, but it was so interesting, and I was so excited because she would write sentences, but they had all. It didn’t. None of the words were spelled correctly. They mostly didn’t even have correct sounds, sound letter relationships. But she knew what a sentence looked like. All of her words were separated, so they look like it looked like a sentence in another language, basically, because it was not.
Melissa Morrison [00:31:06]:
It was not the correct spelling. But it was amazing to just think. And not every student is going to do that. Right. It’s, you know, everyone develops in a different way. And she had different things going on. But the fact that she had at least picked up that that’s what sentences look like. There are spaces between words.
Melissa Morrison [00:31:23]:
These words go. The letters go together. And the words that she had a period at the end, it just wasn’t spelled correctly. So the spelling part hopefully will come for her. But that sentence part came. And then for others, the spelling part is coming. But like you said, there’s letter strings or there’s just a beginning and ending sound for every single word. That’s part of the spelling development.
Melissa Morrison [00:31:46]:
Right. And so, yes, sentences can look so different for. For every and for every single student.
Zeba McGibbon [00:31:52]:
But I like that, you know, I think that jump just to go from. Just to back up for A second. The jump to go from labeling to a sentence is the key. Right? Like what you’re saying is oral language. And I really like that. And I think it’s a very simple thing that teachers can do, but to embed into their check ins or when kids come up to show them their picture. Oh, tell me about, tell me your story, tell me about your picture. And then to also ask follow up question.
Zeba McGibbon [00:32:17]:
Right. Of like, oh, it’s just a, oh, it’s a flower. Oh, why did you draw the flower? Or where did you see the flower? And then that is getting them to practice thinking about the details, which will come later in their writing. You don’t see that in kindergarten necessarily, but to have them start thinking about all those details is really important. And getting them to start the foundation of, of thinking about it in sentences and what is the story about and how can I convey that?
Melissa Morrison [00:32:44]:
Right. And right. So their picture is developing their writing. It’s developing their language comprehension too, because so if you teach them that’s a whole. It’s another thing to teach that you have a setting that you have, you know, we have the sky, we have the ground. Right. But you have the setting to them, that’s something else they can talk about the colors and it’s something else they can talk about. So.
Melissa Morrison [00:33:05]:
Absolutely.
Zeba McGibbon [00:33:06]:
Yeah, exactly. So thank you so much, Melissa. I think you’ve given us a lot to think about in terms of meeting kids where they are and you know, appreciating the process that is writing and, and that every kid is in a different spot. But giving them time to write independently and practice it is really important part of the process and other, lots of awesome other tips along the way. So thank you so much, Melissa.
Melissa Morrison [00:33:34]:
Oh my gosh. You’re welcome. And I just want to say, just not any teacher that’s feeling like, oh my gosh, that’s so many of those things are so different than what I do now. If they listen to you on a regular basis, I’m sure some of these things are already doing for sure. But if you are thinking, oh, there’s so many things to think about. Well, yeah, there are, but you can’t think about all of them right away and you can’t change everything about your practice right away. So think about what is something that sounds feasible to you and that you understand and that you want to try and do that and see what happens, but give it time and then try something else, you know, so don’t think, because this is what I used to do as a teacher.
Melissa Morrison [00:34:08]:
Oh, My gosh.
Melissa Morrison [00:34:08]:
Everything I’m doing is wrong and I have to change everything. And how am I going to do that? Right. So give yourself time, grace, and to just, you know, know that you’re doing, you’re doing good things already. Yeah.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:19]:
And progress comes in little small steps.
Melissa Morrison [00:34:21]:
Yes.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:22]:
So just try one thing out and I. That’s how I frame like any pd. I’m like, well, if I come up with one thing to try, then it was a successful pd. My bar is really low. But also more than that is overwhelming, like you said. But I also think I’ve noticed the curriculum’s not really matching the developmentally appropriateness of teaching kindergarten. And so teachers might feel like, well, this is what my curriculum says to. But I think in this episode, you’ve definitely said a lot of little tweaks that teachers can make to incorporate the oral language piece or maybe a modeling of writing piece or even just let them write for 10 minutes on their own.
Zeba McGibbon [00:34:58]:
Even if the curriculum says do everything whole class or do this activity whole class, maybe you can have some free writing time in your day for the kids. So anyway, lots of little things that people can do and take away. So, Melissa, where can people find you if they want more writing? So support.
Melissa Morrison [00:35:15]:
Sure. So my podcast, getting students to write. I really do try to give a little bit at a time for teachers to be able to implement. So check that out. And I do have my website, Teaching to Transform, where I have a blog on there as well. And I. You can find me mostly on LinkedIn. Awesome.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:34]:
Thank you so much, Melissa.
Zeba McGibbon [00:35:41]:
Thanks so much for listening to The Kindergarten Cafe Podcast. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information and resources or just head straight to kindergartencafe.org for all the goodies. If you liked this episode, the best ways to show your support are to subscribe, leave a review, or send it to a friend. I’ll be back next week with even more kindergarten tips. See you then.